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Foolproof Pie Dough (add vodka?)

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Posted: 10/1/2007 7:42 AM

#215654

	kenjialtci

	Member

Total Posts:97
Last Post:4/28/2009
Member Since:2/1/2007

Subject: Foolproof Pie Dough (add vodka?)

Wow. Lots of questions. I'm glad everyone is so interested. Here's some answers:

Question 1: It is important to process it at least to the point where there is no dry flour remaining. It may still look a little chunky at this stage, but it won't have the dusty look of dry flour. The idea is that to create flakiness, you need two different elements in the pie crust at the right ratio: flour and water (which forms crisp sheets of gluten) and a flour/fat paste that acts to lubricate and separate the sheets of gluten into separate flakes as it bakes (In the case of a traditional pie crust, the fat/flour paste is also supplemented by little chunks of pure fat - testing showed that only the fat/flour paste was necessary, chunks of fat were redundant). Mixing in only part of the flour with the fat at the beginning before adding the rest of the flour guarantees (within reason) that the ratio of fatty flour to watery flour is the same every time.

Question 2: yes. We tested amounts from 1/3 of a cup blended first, remaining added, all the way up to 1 1/4 cup blended first.

Question 3: yes, but not too seriously. Since good lard is not available to most of our readers, our recipe can't call for it. For the record, CPK renders his own leaf lard in VT and swears by it in his pie crusts.

Question 4: yes. We were using straight up vodka for a while, but we found that there was a limit to how little gluten development you want and how moist the dough can be for easy rolling. We found that half and half gave us a good balance of both.

Question 5: yes. 100 proof vodka can be used. Just use 20% less vodka by volume, and add enough water to make up the difference.

Question 6: yes. We tried calvados, brandy, rum, and bourbon. All of them work to tenderize the crust just like the vodka. As long as the alcohol percentage is the same, you can substitute other liquors for the vodka with good results. Try making an apple pie w/ calvados or brandy, for example.

Question 7: no... but let me know if you do. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't work - just make sure you adjust the ratio of water/liquer in order to get the same final alcohol content as the original recipe or your dough may end up tough. You may also need to reduce the amount of sugar if you're using a very sweet liquer.

As for using vinegar and lemon juice, the idea is that gluten formation is inhibited at lower pH values. But through testing and research, we found that this is not the case. In fact, between a pH of 7 (neutral) and 5 (slightly acidic), gluten formation is actually increased. It's only after you get below a pH of 5 that gluten formation is inhibited. Unfortunately, this would require adding almost 6 tablespoons of lemon juice (or vinegar, both with a pH around 2.3) to the pie crust, making it inedibly sour.

Hope this helps. I'll answer as many questions as I can find time for!

Good luck cooking...
Kenji

Kenji Alt
Cook's Illustrated Magazine
kenji.alt@cooksillustrated.com

Posted: 10/1/2007 7:58 AM

#215656

	Darcie

	Member

Total Posts:2720
Last Post:11/16/2009
Member Since:9/3/2003

Kenji,

Thanks for the prompt and detailed response! I am really looking forward to experimenting with this crust. Unfortunately we are in the midst of a big home remodeling project, so I can't try it right now. Hopefully I will get a chance in the next couple of weeks.

Posted: 10/1/2007 8:05 AM

#215658

	haute_poster

	Member

Total Posts:122
Last Post:1/18/2008
Member Since:8/22/2007

Yes, thanks for your hard work and response. I can't wait to try this.

food has power

Posted: 10/1/2007 8:08 AM

#215659

	porterbl1

	Member

Total Posts:1544
Last Post:11/18/2009
Member Since:2/4/2004

Hello Kenji, thank you for the response. I am a huge pie baker so this really excites me. I just made two batches of the pie dough. Do you find that you use all the liquid in your crust? Both of my batches only used about 1/4 cup, and that was a lot wetter that I am used to.

I'll report back when I have rolled and baked the crust!

-Becca
Check out my blog:
http://porterhouse.typepad.com/

Posted: 10/1/2007 8:23 AM

#215661

	kenjialtci

	Member

Total Posts:97
Last Post:4/28/2009
Member Since:2/1/2007

I do use all the liquid every time. Because of the fact that the amount of dry flour is exactly the same every time using this technique, the amount of liquid you add should never vary like it does in a normal pie crust.

I think that the people who will have the most problems with this crust are probably people like yourself - experienced bakers who are used to pie crust acting in a certain way, and know how to deal with it. The goal of the recipe was to make a crust that is very supple and easy to roll out - not like a traditional pie crust - that non-bakers would be able to work with. But for people who have the skill and experience necessary to roll out a traditional dry pie dough, they may find this dough a little bit too wet and supple at the beginning. Give it a try the way the recipe is written though, and see if you like the textural qualities of the dough better than a traditional crust.

Kenji

Kenji Alt
Cook's Illustrated Magazine
kenji.alt@cooksillustrated.com

Posted: 10/1/2007 8:42 AM

#215664

	WavyLocks

	Member

Total Posts:69
Last Post:10/16/2009
Member Since:1/22/2007

Thanks for all the information, Kenji, this sounds intriguing! Definitely on my list for my next pie.

(haute poster: Thanks for the link, but as I mentioned, I don't subscribe to the online service, so the link's pretty useless. When I click the link, it doesn't lead to any sort of recipe description (or date) so I had no way of knowing anything about the recipe besides what was mentioned here on the forum.)

Posted: 10/1/2007 8:44 AM

#215665

	porterbl1

	Member

Total Posts:1544
Last Post:11/18/2009
Member Since:2/4/2004

Thank you Kenji, I was scared of that. I am often worried that all the knowledge I have gleaned over the years may interfere with recipe following. You never know when to make adjustments or stick to the recipe. It is not an issue with CI recipes, but with other less detailed ones.

The reason I made two batches was mainly because I wanted to make certain I hadn't mis-measured. It just felt so 'wrong' to see all the liquid pooling at the bottom. I made myself stir in way more than I normally would so hopefully it will work.

-Becca
Check out my blog:
http://porterhouse.typepad.com/

Posted: 10/1/2007 9:42 AM

#215675

	tim

	Member

Total Posts:5327
Last Post:11/20/2009
Member Since:6/27/2003

Kenji,

Thank you for your time and thoughtful answers.

We're going to break out the calvados and Melrose apples and will be thanking you for your efforts. That was a wonderful article.

Tim

PS: Yes, as CK knows, leaf lard is really special. There are lots of processors in Central Illinois. We even get REAL caul fat.

Posted: 10/1/2007 4:04 PM

#215731

	porterbl1

	Member

Total Posts:1544
Last Post:11/18/2009
Member Since:2/4/2004

Alright everybody, here is the pie crust. I have to say it looks great I cannot wait to taste it. It rolled out beautifully. No tearing or anything. It was a little soft, but that might be a good thing for a lot of people. I am glad I didn't add all the liquid. I promise to try it next though as written. As long as I weigh everything I should feel pretty safe.

How does it look Kenji?

-Becca
Check out my blog:
http://porterhouse.typepad.com/

Posted: 10/1/2007 4:20 PM

#215732

	anisette

	Member

Total Posts:1990
Last Post:11/1/2009
Member Since:9/23/2003

Becca - that looks phenomenal! How did it taste? What was the texture like?

- Jen

A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand
-Miss Piggy

Posted: 10/1/2007 4:46 PM

#215736

	porterbl1

	Member

Total Posts:1544
Last Post:11/18/2009
Member Since:2/4/2004

I haven't gotten there yet, I'll let you know. Thank you!

-Becca
Check out my blog:
http://porterhouse.typepad.com/

Posted: 10/2/2007 6:57 AM

#215804

	Darcie

	Member

Total Posts:2720
Last Post:11/16/2009
Member Since:9/3/2003

Becca that looks awesome. Please report back on texture and taste.

Posted: 10/2/2007 7:49 AM

#215818

	Easy Bake

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Total Posts:8585
Last Post:11/20/2009
Member Since:9/13/2004

Yes, Becca, it looks wonderful. What exact techniques and ingredients do you use for your crust treatment? It looks like an egg wash then sugar. Egg white? Whole egg? Egg yolk? What kind of sugar?

I think that most of the visual appeal of a pie is this crust patina like you have artfully accomplished.

Lynn

Posted: 10/2/2007 8:02 AM

#215824

	haute_poster

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Total Posts:122
Last Post:1/18/2008
Member Since:8/22/2007

That pie looks friggin' rediculously good. I'm curious too. Report back, soldier ;-)

food has power

Posted: 10/2/2007 8:52 AM

#215833

	porterbl1

	Member

Total Posts:1544
Last Post:11/18/2009
Member Since:2/4/2004

Okay everyone. I was a little incredulous when I was making this dough that it would work as promised. I have a lot of faith in CI (and Kenji) but this requires a huge adjustment in thinking. How could this cookie dough looking lump turn into a flaky and tender pie crust?

Well I would say that this could only be called a pastry breakthrough. It absolutely turned out as promised. It was the flakiest/tenderest pie crust I have made. It is so strange to me that it works, obviously I do not have a strong enough science background :).

I am curious how much it would hurt it to do 2/3 butter to 1/3 shortening. That is the ratio I usually use.

I am kind of mad that after I worked so hard on my pastry skills that it seems I will not be using them as much. I guess I will have to stick to puff pastry (until he makes that easy ;).)

Btw, I used egg white and granulated sugar this time, although I usually use turbinado.

-Becca
Check out my blog:
http://porterhouse.typepad.com/

Posted: 10/2/2007 9:13 AM

#215835

	kenjialtci

	Member

Total Posts:97
Last Post:4/28/2009
Member Since:2/1/2007

Thanks for making it!

We've tried butter and shortening in different ratios, and as long as the total fat content is the same, the differences were minor (to a degree - obviously using all shortening will produce a different flavor than all butter). Changing the amount by losing a couple tablespoons of shortening and adding a couple tablespoons of butter won't make that much difference (it was part of our abuse testing), it's just that 12 TB butter and 8TB shortening barely edged out the other ratios in a blind tasting.

Kenji

Kenji Alt
Cook's Illustrated Magazine
kenji.alt@cooksillustrated.com

Posted: 10/2/2007 9:35 AM

#215841

	haute_poster

	Member

Total Posts:122
Last Post:1/18/2008
Member Since:8/22/2007

Based on Kenji's responses, it stands to reason that they basically leave no stone unturned. The most interesting revelation for me is the idea that the flakiness occurs largely due to gluten formation when the dry flour mixes with moisture. If that's the case, the foolproof method makes alot of sense.

food has power

Posted: 10/2/2007 9:41 AM

#215842

	tim

	Member

Total Posts:5327
Last Post:11/20/2009
Member Since:6/27/2003

Kenji,

I am thinking about a lattice pie crust, and I assume that this dough is a little fragile for the weaving process. In fact, in MY experience most doughs tend to come apart when I am weaving a lattice.

Is that another project, or do you have some thoughts?

Thanks again,

Tim

Posted: 10/2/2007 10:24 AM

#215844

	fitzie

	Member

Total Posts:2080
Last Post:11/20/2009
Member Since:3/18/2004

Tim, my mother was a crack pie maker. She could whip out a lattice crust in no time. She would cut her strips and refrigerate to get them very cold. Then she would assemble. She was very good at this and got it all together in about a minute or so. Then she would refrigerate again before she crimped the edges. She always said the only secret is to keep everything ice cold. Unfortunately this talent didn't get passed on to her eldest daughter. I think I'll try again with this foolproof pie dough.

Fitzie

Posted: 10/3/2007 9:37 AM

#215950

	kenjialtci

	Member

Total Posts:97
Last Post:4/28/2009
Member Since:2/1/2007

Caught me. I never tested the recipe on a lattice-top pie. But I don't see why it wouldn't work. try rolling out the dough, putting it on a baking sheet and popping it in the freezer for a couple minutes to chill before cutting strips and weaving them. If you use a heavy enough baking sheet, it should stay cold and keep the pastry strips cold while you're working on the top. As long as everything's kept cold all the time, I think it should work.

Let me know how it turns out.

Kenji Alt
Cook's Illustrated Magazine
kenji.alt@cooksillustrated.com

Posted: 10/3/2007 2:23 PM

#215999

	haute_poster

	Member

Total Posts:122
Last Post:1/18/2008
Member Since:8/22/2007

Question for those who feel the dough was pretty soft rolling out: Is there a limit to how cold a dough should be before rolling it out? If the dough is soft, can't the dough be taken from the fridge to the freezer for 10 min before rolling it out?

food has power

Posted: 10/3/2007 9:07 PM

#216026

	bheydemann

	Member

Total Posts:2991
Last Post:11/19/2009
Member Since:12/12/2004

The goal here is plasticity. You can get it by taking the cold dough and banging on it with your rolling pins until it consents to roll out. This will let you work with a colder dough than otherwise. And it's un.
BeckyH

Posted: 10/4/2007 4:27 AM

#216034

	d_stefaniak

	Member

Total Posts:3536
Last Post:11/19/2009
Member Since:6/3/2004

Posted by: haute_poster
Question for those who feel the dough was pretty soft rolling out: Is there a limit to how cold a dough should be before rolling it out? If the dough is soft, can't the dough be taken from the fridge to the freezer for 10 min before rolling it out?

When I tested this, the dough wasn't so soft out of the fridge as to be unmanageable - just softer and tackier than other recipes. I always roll mine between parchment paper sheets (with a bit of flour) and this cuts down on sticking, as well as makes it easier to transport back to freezer or fridge if the dough gets too warm. It's also less mess to clean up.

Debby

I gotta have more cowbell!

Posted: 10/4/2007 6:08 AM

#216037

	porterbl1

	Member

Total Posts:1544
Last Post:11/18/2009
Member Since:2/4/2004

I finally found fresh cranberries yesterday, after fighting a craving for them since last fall. I was so happy and I bought 3 bags, then came home and made the Apple Cranberry pie.

My gala apples were not very good, and I was worried about the pie being too sweet because I like things very sweet tart.

Well it was seriously the best pie I have ever eaten. It might have tied with the cardamom/dried cherry/apple pie that I made with Amy's Northern Spy apples.

The filling texture and layers turned out perfectly, and the pie transformed my so so apples into something amazing. I am going to pick up a few more bags of cranberries to freeze today.

Great pie!

-Becca
Check out my blog:
http://porterhouse.typepad.com/

Posted: 10/4/2007 6:15 AM

#216038

	d_stefaniak

	Member

Total Posts:3536
Last Post:11/19/2009
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Bravo to Kenji yet again! First the blueberry scones, now this. What's up your sleeve next, young man? :)

Debby

I gotta have more cowbell!

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